Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by bill josephson on November 28, 2008 at 2:11pm

Have to agree 100% with Nick. As a recruiter doing my own sourcing the means by how I get the names of my candidate prospects has no bearing whatsoever on our business relationship once established. I'm telling the candidates/prospects what's helpful for them to know to move the process--certainly not everything--truthfully. If it's a question not in my interest to answer, I won't forthcomingly answer it. Since all my recruit calls are to passive candidates I'm literally surprising at their desks everyone wants to know how I found them. All I tell them is "internal networking over the phone." My clients I'm far more forthcoming with as I work for them and long after any candidate is gone I'd like to continue doing so.

What some need to bear in mind is most everyone involved in the sourcing/recruiting process is looking out for their own interests including candidates/prospects that don't often don't coincide with mine. The quest is in effectively finding qualified passive candidates and few are willing to help you.....best exceptions are other candidates/prospects you're doing or have done something for in the past. People are mostly 'all about them,' exclusively.

Finally, as long as neither my clients nor myself are publicly disgraced and/or legally implicated in my sourcing/recruiting efforts to assist them they couldn't care less how I find candidates for them. They're mostly all ex agency people knowing full well how the game is really played and what I need to do. They know the process isn't pretty and comparable to legal corporate espionage. We're in a survivalist industry comprised of some of the most mentally tough, creative, persistent, intelligent, self-reliant, empathetic, wise, and savvy risk taking entrepreneurs one can find as all we really have is our faith in ourselves, hopefully family (glad I do) support, and our God to rely on.

Just my two cents.

Bill

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Permalink Reply by Sheila on November 28, 2008 at 7:57pm

Nick,

If lying works for you, so be it. Do *you*.

But having been a researcher over 8 years, I acquired tools early on that I have used to get me those highly prized names. And I also use the very simple "technique" of asking the question. If that doesn't work, I write letters...Snail mail. I read, Nick. I read White Papers, Press Releases. Web sites. I go to auto shows...well, I go there because I love cars but, you get my gist. For me, it's the thrill of the chase, Nick. I try never to go into battle unarmed.

Not pious Nick. Just straight forward.



Nick Leslie-Miller said:

Very pious. Who was it that said "he who is without sin cast the first stone"?
Sheila said:

Such an interesting question. As a professional, I find that there is no need to lie. I don't find gatekeepers particularly a problem. My approach is straight forward. If for example the person I am seeking no longer works there - I simply ask, do you know who replaced him/her? You generally get the answer. If I am calling about a position and I don't know who holds that position, I simply ask who it is and I am told who that person is.

Lying is so "Willie Lohman" and out of step. It takes you from being a solution provider to being an amateur salesperson...like the used car salesman of old. There are too many tools available to feel the need to resort to lying as a way of life. We have worked very hard to change the image of our profession to once again reduce ourselves to being mere peddlers in the marketplace.

We are professionals who provide meaningful solutions and who solve problems. Yesterday's salesperson tried to *trick* you into buying and nearly always lost in the end when the item was returned due to buyer's remorse. Gatekeepers see that person coming long before they get there and they are not welcomed.

The question to me is, what is wrong with your product or your sales prowess that you *need* to resort to lying?

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Permalink Reply by Maureen Sharib on November 30, 2008 at 5:57am

LinkedIn discussion on same/related subject.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Levy on November 30, 2008 at 10:05am

Sheila-Just to be safe (even Bill Clinton has agreed to disclose his donor list), can you edit your RBC account to include your last name?

Thanks from the ethical side of our profession...

Sheila said:

Nick,

If lying works for you, so be it. Do *you*.

But having been a researcher over 8 years, I acquired tools early on that I have used to get me those highly prized names. And I also use the very simple "technique" of asking the question. If that doesn't work, I write letters...Snail mail. I read, Nick. I read White Papers, Press Releases. Web sites. I go to auto shows...well, I go there because I love cars but, you get my gist. For me, it's the thrill of the chase, Nick. I try never to go into battle unarmed.

Not pious Nick. Just straight forward.

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Permalink Reply by Carole on January 23, 2009 at 10:23pm

perhaps this is a rationalization, but offering someone a better opportunity is not unethical.
Whether Christian, Hindu, Muslim, helping others is a good thing.
It's an individual's choice to listen and act. We are not the devil tempting them.
cj

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Permalink Reply by Sarah Fraser on January 24, 2009 at 3:56pm

That fact that this is even been questioned sais to me that you all know it's not ethical.

Recruiters are in the business of sales, not HR. Having an extra middle person is just annoying for the employer and the job seeker.

I do think there are some good recruiters out there. I respect mature recruiters that have work experience outside of recruitment but the industry has become a bit of a joke.

If recruitment firms want to have a good reputation then they shouldn't hire 26 year old's that think they know everything because they have a diploma.

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Permalink Reply by bill josephson on January 24, 2009 at 5:20pm

I've been recruiting for 29 years. The reason companies utilize me is I only recruit passive candidates over the phone adding value to their own efforts giving them access to candidates they wouldn't have readily gained access to on their own.

Anyone thinking headhunting is unethical shouldn't be in the profession. If you believe soliciting company employees about career advancing opportunities are unethical/off limits, recruiting is not for you. It's true no company wants to be recruited from, all will try in their own manner nicely or otherwise to get us to cease and desist, and will make it as tough as possible for us to succeed specially when feeling our headhunting presence.

Bottom line, this is not a profession for everyone. Every one of us still in the business is doing something right and should be commended with the dearth of paying clients and candidate reticence changing jobs in an economic recession. I place pressure on myself to be sharp, upbeat, short hard hitting and interesting with recruit pitches, and at all times professional in every single call I make. Making tons of cold calls we suffer every indignity one can possibly suffer on a telephone yet always come back. The unprofessional recruiters you refer to won't last......even most of my respected hard fought competitors from the 1980's are gone from the business as the last 2001 recession killed them with our corporate "jobless recovery."

The reality is my role is the most personal touch a candidate and company have in the process as I'm actually talking with both on the phone instead of email black-holedom. I would hate to be a rookie today.

Bill

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Permalink Reply by Midge on March 2, 2009 at 4:07pm

This question being tied to religion is ridiculous. I know many religious people who have NO moral integrity. I have been recruiting for over 15 years first in an agency setting and than in corporate America and I provide a service. I treat each person with respect and attempt to provide an opportunity. If they are interested that usually means they are not happy in their current position so would be looking anyway. I am actually offended by your question!

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Permalink Reply by Matt Denney on March 2, 2009 at 4:42pm

Karen,

Bravo! I read many of the comments and I think yours is the most on target, in my opinion. Just one question, how are you getting through gatekeepers? Perhaps that is a training session you could package and sell to a very willing audience.

Warmly,
Matt Denney

KarenM / Hirecentrix.com said:

My thoughts
1 - first to recognize that Ethics and religion well, they don't go hand in hand. Ethics as we know them today were derived even before there was the "founding" of religion.. via the greek pholosiphers (socrates is considered one of the father of ethics)

2 - ruse calling is Lying, and should not be part of any business function, and despite the number of Arguments that I have heard to try to support it.. I can NEVER understand the need to Ruse call or lie to do this job.. It Isn't necessary! The ruse call isn't just unethical due to the misrepresentation.. but it is also ILLEGAL (as per the FTC and state trade laws) which is why Ethics and Law go hand in hand in this industry - though many may fight the good fight with this argument..

we must always remember 'Ethics ultimately is self-regulation,' Imposed regulation is law, (so) in our industry, (when) we don't self-regulate, we create laws.


again why? what is the need to every consider supporting or defending the need to for SHODDY, unethical recruiting..

What confuses me, is why do we believe that Ruse Calling to be the fundamentals of Recruiting? I can state with a straight face, and look in the mirror as well.. and many who know me, will know this to be true.. that I NEVER have had to Lie as a recruiter to do this job.. and do it well.. extremely well actually.. in ALL the MANY years I have been a recruiter.

My comments To the ones who don’t care please remember - “If you do wrong, you damage our whole industry. You’ve done Us all wrong

We really need to consider presenting a better position as a whole industry, this includes Corporate, TPR, and Staffing Recruiting. We really want to consider doing this now, before someone else WILL do it for US.

My thoughts
karen mattonen
www.hirecentrix.com

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Permalink Reply by Midge on March 2, 2009 at 4:54pm

Exactly Karen. Well said!

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Permalink Reply by bill josephson on March 2, 2009 at 5:03pm

IMO:
If you think you're harming a company, no.
If you think you're providing a valuable service to people giving them the right to consider other opportunities which you get paid for should it materialize, yes.
It's all in how the individual perceives their role.

Bill

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Permalink Reply by Carole on March 2, 2009 at 6:28pm

Eric Haber said:

Nicely said Bill,

Recruiting is a very difficult sales job, it's not for everyone.

bill josephson said:

I've been recruiting for 29 years. The reason companies utilize me is I only recruit passive candidates over the phone adding value to their own efforts giving them access to candidates they wouldn't have readily gained access to on their own.

Anyone thinking headhunting is unethical shouldn't be in the profession. If you believe soliciting company employees about career advancing opportunities are unethical/off limits, recruiting is not for you. It's true no company wants to be recruited from, all will try in their own manner nicely or otherwise to get us to cease and desist, and will make it as tough as possible for us to succeed specially when feeling our headhunting presence.

Bottom line, this is not a profession for everyone. Every one of us still in the business is doing something right and should be commended with the dearth of paying clients and candidate reticence changing jobs in an economic recession. I place pressure on myself to be sharp, upbeat, short hard hitting and interesting with recruit pitches, and at all times professional in every single call I make. Making tons of cold calls we suffer every indignity one can possibly suffer on a telephone yet always come back. The unprofessional recruiters you refer to won't last......even most of my respected hard fought competitors from the 1980's are gone from the business as the last 2001 recession killed them with our corporate "jobless recovery."

The reality is my role is the most personal touch a candidate and company have in the process as I'm actually talking with both on the phone instead of email black-holedom. I would hate to be a rookie today.

Bill

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